Jen, all I can offer is this:

First, you have to remember that my Grandfather was president of the Board of Directors for the ADA (the forerunner of the IBOAI) for 12 years; and my Mother was Executive Director. While I can’t repeat a LOT of what I overheard through the years due to confidentiality issues… I’m now seeing changes. For real. There are people in charge who realize the “old way of doing things” just creates lawsuits and a lot of internet critics…LOL!

Amway’s Rules and Regulations are now being enforced – thousands of IBOs have either been terminated for Rules Infractions; or have left because they were upset with the changes. Financial Rewards have been put in place for those who follow the Rules.

I’m not saying this will all take place overnight – there’s a lot of old and BAD habits out there in the AMOs. We critics need to continue holding the IBOAI and Corp’s “feet to the fire” to weed these Bad Apples out.

But I *really* feel it’s different this time.

Oh absolutely!!!!

I think a ruling that would have banned Amway from a democratic country like the UK would have set a precedent that could have hurt them in other markets. I think it caused the Corp to take a good hard look at what the AMOs were teaching. China placed outright bans on what the AMOs were allowed to do – and I’m pretty sure India was monitoring things closely, too??

I am just curious as to why anyone would believe ANYTHING these people are telling you?

They are kind of the kings and queens of doublespeak and deception, so why would these statements lead you to believe that anything was REALLY going to change? I know these people are high up in the food chain, but in my experience that generally means they are the worst offenders.

Now, I do not know these people personally, nor any of the particulars, so this is in no way a personal attack on the Victors, and especially not on Deb, who I have always appreciated here in this group.

I just don’t know why we would be expected to trust anything they are saying about the way things are “supposed” to be? I wouldn’t believe any of that until I not only heard it, but saw it being practiced by new IBOs.

Perhaps I am way off base…if I am, please fill me in!

It sounds to me that Amway/Quixtar are

just trying to make some things legal to save their ass. OK, they’re going to have tapes and functions monitored. They are openingly posting income disclaimers. B That doesn’t change the fact that behind the scenes they operate like a PYRAMID and a CULT! IBOs will still be trained to DUPLICATE, read only books on THEIR list, to NOT LISTEN to anything NEGATIVE, to stay PLUGGED IN, to be COUNSELED in everything…relationships, what to spend money on, religion, EVERYTHING!!! And with all that said, how can they claim that they are presenting an opportunity to be an INDEPENDANT BUSINESS OWNER???
The only real way that Amway/Quixtar can come clean and be honest is to SHUT DOWN the whole operation and give people back their lives!!!

I think Quixtar is betting the additional money

that can be earned by an Accredited IBO will encourage them to go to those groups who ARE Accredited.

So far, the exodus of the TEAM and several other AMO groups from Amway has NOT affected their sales all that much – I think the leadership at Amway/Quixtar is prepared to do what it takes to keep their company legal in all of its markets. In other words, it’s time to stop letting the AMOs muck up the company name. While Rich and Jay had all their “eggs in one basket” – namely Amway – the “kids” have hugely diverse incomes from a gazillion other businesses. If upholding their rules meant that Amway went under – the “kids” would survive quite nicely without it. I think they realized it would take something drastic to repair the damage that has been done to their parents’ business??

You need to remember that the Victors are

way high up on the LOS chart, higher than Yager, Britt, and a whole lot of others. So Victors would receive VERY large volume bonuses from Amway for goods sold. Yes, he also has his motivational system; but the income from that probably pales in comparison to this Amway bonuses; it’s sort of why I’ve zeroed in on HIM.

There are OTHER Kingpins who receive far more in tool/function income than Amway Bonuses – and I suspect that many of them have recently left the business.

There are new bonuses that are in place – and the only IBOs who can share those bonuses are ones in Accredited LOAs (Line of Affiliation, the “Amway” word for what we call an AMO). To get Accredited, an AMO must submit a certain percentage of their tapes, and have their functions monitored. The Corp monitors are looking for accurate income depictions, honest references to being part of Amway, and integrity in telling IBOs that participation in tools is purely optional. Jody told me that ALL of his tapes are submitted for monitoring (and his group IS Accredited)

Since I am no longer an IBO, I don’t receive the publications or go on Quixtar’s business website – but Jody said that the Corp has been stressing to ALL IBOS that they must comply with the Rules and Regulations. He gave me a copy of a magazine geared for MLMers that featured Quixtar, and prominently posted in many places were income disclaimers and definitions of “active” and “gross income”. It’s the first time I’ve ever witnessed anything so OPEN.

Functions were never “REQUIRED” BUT

your upline (usually some sort of higher level person), STRONGLY SUGGESTED that you not miss a function/rally/etc, and that you stay on the tape/book program no matter how trying things became. So, they said, “If you break any part of that “chain”, you’ll lose 90 days from going direct”.
This was pounded into me. It got old somewhat fast. Why I stayed with the program so long is just proof positive how influential “the system” got on me. I feared losing that “90 days” Well, I never got there.
My “system” was I.N.A (interational Networking Associates) and the heads of that org (a split from WWDB) was Elliott, Johnson, and Floor.
Push, push, push went the system. Gotta keep those “tool coffers” filled with money from fools like me, and many others.
We were supposed to “check upline” if we wanted to make a purchase for ourselves, or investment purposes, as your son’s IRA was concerned.
“the systems” ‘take’ on it was, ‘you’ll make the money, so why worry abuot building a nestegg’.

As an aside, I actually had a tape or two where Victor was speaking. Very much the motivator, and one of the few “entertaining” speakers I heard… Ranked up there with Coleman Orr, who I thought was a barrel of laughs.

“My goals are to hit .300, score 100 runs, and stay injury-prone.”

Deb, about not forcing people to buy tools or go to functions

my understanding is that the upline does not force these things, but that it is “SUGGESTED”, at least that’s what my son tells me. So, do you mean that the upline is now suppose to let the downlines make decisions for themselves without the pressure of suggestions? Even if that is true now, people have been so brainwashed into thinking that everything their upline have said about this stuff in the past that they’re conditioned to buy CDs, books, and tickets to functions anyways. My son didn’t even want to put money into an IRA account that his employer matches up to 3% because he could use that money to buy another CD, which shows how strong the power of suggestion is.
His Dad suggested that he ask his upline about it, knowing that the upline’s JOB is an account and what his answer should be. This put the upline in kind of a bind. He ended up telling my son to put half the amount Dad suggested into the IRA. I’m sure that as the Quixtar upline he would have rather seen that money spent on CDs.

Just thought I’d pass this along

– last Wednesday I enjoyed the company of Jody Victor, Amway Crown Direct; and Connie Altschwager, the Executive Director for the IBOAI. I was greeted warmly, had a tour of the IBOAI offices; and was treated to a wonderful dinner (despite Jody who jokingly introduced me as the “Mother of the Critics”…LOL!)

We talked about the future of Amway and the Motivational Organizations – and the new rules that affect the tools/function ends of their businesses. The AMOs must make accurate income claims, not deny their ties to Amway/Quixtar; and not force people to buy tools or attend functions. Amway has been quite open with IBOs lately that upper level people DO make additional income from the tools and functions.
I truly feel we are going to see the overt lying and abuse of new recruits come to an end some day – the IBOAI is NOT afraid to enforce their rules (hence the mass termination and exodus of tool-pushing Kingpins last fall).

For those of you who have loved ones caught in the snare of an AMO who is still doing business “the old way” – you need to learn their upline, preferably up to and beyond Diamond…..document the false information or insane income claims…and report it!

Hey everybody

My name is Josh and I have always wanted to work from my home but I have been scammed and lost money as well. I have just found a free service that has oportunity to make some extra money but I am trying it first before I tell anyone about it. It seems great and it has not cost me anything and has made me some money but I want to be sure because I dont want to mislead anyone. God Bless

By the way

around here in Montreal (Quebec) the newest scam (read: greatest grounbreaking opportunity of a life time) is called ONE VISION and is promoting the idea that you must benefit from rebates all over the world since you are already spending money on things, and you should belong to a group making sure everybody else will benefit from those savings. yark.

And Quixtar has never been very popular here I wonder if that TV ad I refered to in the other post will help them to expand.

The most popular ones now are Primerica and Usana although I think the compensation plan of Usana is less harmfull I believe (read: less synergy).

Hope all my former friends here are well, including Ruth… if she’s still around ????

I have been away from this excellent site

and away from anti-mlm battle for more than 5 years now, wow time flies. But i couldnt help to post the fact that for about a week now, we get to have recruiting ads from Quixtar Amway on cable TV ! with all the deception and world-class opportunity bullshit. I couldnt believe it, arent those guys full of law suits ? to my knowledge they have never use cable tv to promote their scam ? anything new i should know about these guys ? the worst part is, i’m sure they will have success with these ads, in these difficult times; after all, “its on TV it cannot be all bad” !! LoL

I actually signed up for newsletters from some “MLM trainers”

These are people that provide training for people on how to prospect and “help” people (from any MLM). The buzz in the MLM industry right now is that since the economy is down, unemployment is up and people are having a hard time, this is the best time to recruit them into MLM. That would explain why all of a sudden people are seeing MLM ads all over the place. Bad economic times provide happy hunting grounds to kick people who are already down.

The pro mlmer’s are at it again

I just spotted a pre paid legal full size and color ad in our little local grocery store. The grocery store has permanent pic frames on the wall that you can slip an ad thru so that every one can see it as soon as you come in the door. Perfect visual advertizing range. Just keep your eyes peeled. Now they found out how to advertise in a grocery store,jeeze. Unbelievable.

You’re welcome LOL

Come to think of it… it illustrates Quixtar exactly! That is pretty close to how I was prospected for Quixtar. My ex and I were invited over to “have coffee” with my old high school friend and her husband. Then they separated us. She talked about the girly stuff like how awesome the Artistry cosmetics were and he took my ex to the office and talked about energy drinks and computers.

Of course, I was working for Estee Lauder at the time and not at all impressed with Artistry. (Heck, I was getting FREE Estee Lauder).
But my ex fell for it all. Hook. Line. Sinker. He thought he was gonna sell his energy drinks and whatnot to the local gym where he worked out and had lots of buddies.

He never sold a thing to anyone.

We put in one order for the PVBV whatever and got a whopping check for like $7.00

Then when he saw that the guy who was supposedly making the killing at Quixtar was driving a beat up old clunker of a car, that was the end of it for him. Thank goodness!

I don’t have anything too valuable to add, but wanted to tell ya….

This reminded me of an episode of “King of Queens”. Doug & Carrie are invited over for dinner at their neighbor’s house and it turns out that they are really being prospected in to a water filtration scheme. He had to buy a license to sell, then he ropes Arthur in to it… and they can’t sell a thing. Then Doug goes back to his neighbor and tried to “return” the license… BUT they had MOVED very funny episode that has a huge element of truth in it.

While it is true that CEOs

generally make more money than people at the entry level jobs, the difference is that those at the bottom are not paying those at the top the way they do in MLM. Furthermore, people at the bottom of a company are paid something for their labor.

MLM is not a business. It is a scheme designed to redistribute money from gullible souls at the bottom to the crooks at the top. Most members of an MLM are not business partners, but customers, paying for the privilege to purchase overpriced, often worthless goods.

I could answer your question(s)

but first, you would have to name ONE – just one- “real network marketing company” that does not let anybody fail.

Also, since there is no chance of failure in mlms whatsoever, you should enroll in say, at least 5-6 mlm companies. That way, you can be CEO of 5 or 6 companies all at once – even Bill Gates was CEO of only one company, and a pyramid at that.

hi guys I was just wondering why people consider mlm or network marketing a pyramid?

As business owner myself I cant help to ask what makes mlm such a bad idea. Its clear to me that people just don’t understand. The true pyramid is what we use to work under. Starting at a low level of pay and a title and there millions of other like us, then when you go up a level. New title, more pay, more hours and few thousand people like us. Until you reach the top. Thats only if someone quits, retires or dies. The Traditional Business Model takes a true shape of triangle “pyramid”. So can anyone tell me why people consider mlm a pyramid when if you look at it and what you think about this guaranteed payday loans no teletrack service? As you grow from helping others up a ladder. There is many other ceo’s. Not just one ceo at the top and when you get to the top your still helping others get to the top as well. To me that sound like a flat even playing field. Not a pyramid. And oh if a mlm company considers there model to be a pyramid. They are scams, because a real network company do not let the people below them fail. so can anyone please answer me that question.

Everyone knows how frustrating it is to try to explain the whole MLM thing

I have tried to express concern to my cousin and she took it totally the wrong way. And I know a lot of people here will agree.
I do not even want to hear “you are just negative.” I guess it is selfish that I cannot take those harsh words. What my husband explained about his experience was all truth. But then again why would his friend listen to him, he is just another “loser” who didn’t try hard enough. Yes, I run away from MLM. They freak me out! I mean we are not rude about it. We just politely say that it is not for us. And then in the future when business doesn’t work out we promise to be there to help them understand that is wasn’t their fault. Should I have warned them about it and asked thought provoking questions, that would have perhaps saved them a lot of money? Yes. But did I want to ruin the friendship? No. I will not let the MLM win. Eventually people learn. I have admitted here that I have the personality and circumstances that would make me want to do MLM’s. But again I was fortunate enough to have a husband who had already experienced, and an untainted mind (the suits had not gotten to me yet). MLM’s are evil. I have yet to see anybody that I know make it, and stop faking it till they make it. And thanks to this site and researching, I know that even if they do make it, a lot of manipulating of people occured and that is just not right.

If I had someone I considered a friend

and they were doing something that was harmful to not only themselves, but to others too, I would tell them EXACTLY what I thought in a polite, but very firm way. I would expect no less from my friends. I have been given correction before by friends, and most of the time I wasn’t receptive to what they said, but I knew that they cared for me enough to tell me what they thought because in their mind I knew they at least were attempting to help me. In most cases I listened and at least thought about what they said. In a few cases I changed my mind about what I was doing or about to do and was very greatful later that they had cared enough to get my attention. Making up half-truths(lies) and avoiding the subject only prolongs and puts off the problem till later and adds fuel to the fire when they eventually find out what your really think. The one thing you will never totally regain with a friend is trust once you betray it. They may forgive, but they will never forget. If they are only friends because you agree with them, then they are no friends at all. If you fear losing them as friends because you do not want to be truthful with them, that is a selfish act only for your benifit, not theirs. It is your decision.

So a while back I told you all about my story

and how my cousin said a bunch of bad things about me because I was a skeptic of her “juice” business. Again I thank this group for the information that they gave me about these MLM’s. Geez there are a million and one of them out there and they are so annoying. In this week alone, 2 acquaintances of mine joined Mona Vie and some other energy drink/supplement business, and contacted me to try their stuff. But I am so aware of the scams. I thank this site because I know that I should just politely say no thanks, and pray that they don’t ruin their lives. I did all the rationalizing and trying to spit “logic” with my cousin and it didn’t work.
Today one of my friends contacted my husband by email to ask what my email address was because he heard I was a personal trainer. So my husband told me to contact him, because he might be interested in training. So I emailed this friend back and asked if he was interested in training because he asked my husband about MY business. Then he emailed me back blah blah blahing about the “Antioxidants” and how it could help my clients. I am not responding at all. We are not the closest of friends. So I forwarded the email to my husband who is equally annoyed with MLM’s and he was so sad that his friend fell victim. He actually called me from the ship and we talked about how annoying these MLM’s are. I told him that we couldn’t tell them anything or question anything, because we didn’t want to lose the couple as friends. And then he sent me this email of what he wanted to send to his friensd but didn’t.

I wonder if it’s all just different facets of the same problem

USGov thinks they can keep boosting the debt limit because hey, everyone has debt, we’re the great US of A, and why not just have a little more? That’s classic thinking which in the personal realm has gotten so many people into their own credit crisis. And these folks who raided Walmart, well, it’s all Monopoly money after all, and darnit I deserve that big screen TV, and it’s all public assistance anyway, so why not let the rich employees who pay into the system, carry a little more? And the employees at Walmart who apparently ignored multiple levels of checks-and-balances to grant these folks virtual “blank check” privileges, because hey it’s the company’s money, what do we care, everyone owes someone so why not just let folks have whatever they want and the bigwigs can sort it all out later? And the fast food workers who are striking for higher wages, want their piece of the American Dream so why not spit on the money they have, in favor of going on strike for the money they could have?

Sounds to me like an awful lot of folks either have no awareness of, and/or no concern about, the implications of their actions. And since debt is inevitable, who cares how high it goes? The whole country perhaps needs to wake up and smell the kitty box, and think hard about where these choices are taking us. And yea, Jan, I’m worried about the future of our country too. Seems to me the piper is going to demand his payment here sooner rather than later. Not sure how many more hits like this we can take as a nation, but I don’t expect we can take a lot more of ‘em. And now the stage is set for this whole circus to start over again in just a few months. I’ll get my popcorn now and watch the show when it comes.

Yes, Wal-Mart is completely responsible for their loss

but the THEFT by all those individuals falls squarely on the shoulders of the thieves and Wal-Mart should prosecute those individuals for the thieves they are. Unfortunately it speaks volumes about our nation that people would do such a thing when they KNEW they did not have that money on their EBT card.

Also, you have to realize that Wal-Mart was in a bit of a bind because if they had turned a single person down for a purchase they would have found themselves sued, due to our stupid litigation system. They should have done up to the $50 with proper id and factual contact info, stressing that the balances would be checked and anyone purchasing over their balance would be liable for that money, but those 2 stores didn’t so they are out millions with little to no hope of getting it back.

The end result could be that Wal-mart may close those stores as a result of the loss and then the whole community suffers due to the greed of a few.

This is Wal-mart’s fault, and Wal-mart’s fault at these two locations

First the system went down in 17 states Secondly there are many safegards in place to prevent fraudulent use of these benefits in cases such as this, which Walmart blatantly disregarded and for which people stole and took advantage of the system failure.

If the system goes down, the merchant *can* extend up to 50.00 dollars to the customer who is presently at the register at the time the system goes down.

I do agree every person who stole has major culpability in this, but Walmart at these two locations is at fault for being told these rules again, when they called to check on the system and promptly ignoring them over and over and over again.

I’m sure many of you heard about the food stamp debacle at Wal-Mart over the weekend

Basically the food stamp computer system went down for about 6 hours and some wal-marts put customers on the honor system trusting them to have the amount available on their ebt card to get what they were purchasing. Wal-Mart is now out millions because not one soul was honest. They cleared the shelves including items like big screen tvs.
One woman was in line and had over $700 worth of items rang up when the system came back online. Her EBT balance? $.49 she RAN out of the store, leaving it all behind.